The normalisation of words like ‘stupid’ does have real life consequences to people with learning disabilities. Any time you use that word or similar words, you are not only insulting the person it’s directed at, but you’re also insulting all people with a learning disability by insinuating that they are in some way inferior, because according to you their disability is an insult in and of itself. You will not gain any sympathy from the disabled community by normalising those words. You’re pushing them away and throwing them under the bus to be targeted first.
‘Weird’ is not an equivalent word because it doesn’t define a group of people in the same way. Walz’s usage of the word ‘weird’ wasn’t to insult transphobes. It was a correct assessment that republicans are way too interested in controlling the personal lives of trans people in a way that most people would (and should) be weirded out by. It’s weird (and creepy) to find a stranger in your bedroom in the same way that it’s weird (and creepy) to have a stranger tell you how you should dress, behave and look. It’s an argument that has substance, compared to the empty argument of saying that a transphobe person is of ‘low intelligence’, especially when that’s often not even the source of their transphobia.
Substantive arguments are always better than non substantive ‘mean’ arguments as you call them. You’re not arguing to convince a nazi, you’re arguing to convince a bystander that a nazi is dangerous. A bystander needs an actual reason to be convinced, not a few mean words.
You claim a lot about antifascist strategy but your claims are not supported by historical evidence. The strongest antifascist factions have always been those that seek unity within oppressed groups. Tailism just leads to division.
The normalisation of words like ‘stupid’ does have real life consequences to people with learning disabilities.
Targeted meanness doesn’t normalize the specific words used so that is not a relevant concern. Again, no one but the targeted fascists were offended by the usage of weird. Usages of the word weird haven’t exploded against queer people. By being mean to intolerant people we are defending the people those intolerant people want to kill. By refusing to be mean we would be abandoning the targeted out-groups. It is trivial to differentiate between using a word as a rhetorical tool in specific situations and dismissing its use in general discourse. It is in fact insulting to marginalized groups to insinuate they would not understand this.
‘Weird’ is not an equivalent word because it doesn’t define a group of people in the same way. Walz’s usage of the word ‘weird’ wasn’t to insult transphobes.
It definitely insulted them. Trump and Vance did not know how to handle being called weird. Weird is most certainly equivalent to words like dumb and stupid in terms of meanness.
compared to the empty argument of saying that a transphobe person is of ‘low intelligence’, especially when that’s often not even the source of their transphobia.
The use case of insulting a fascists intelligence would be different than calling them weird. Any given word is not going to be effective in every hypothetical scenario. Weird was the correct choice in Tim Walz’s case during the election. Calling fascists stupid can be the correct choice in others.
Substantive arguments are always better than non substantive ‘mean’ arguments as you call them.
The fact this is wrong is self-evident. We could of course not fit this discussion effectively into character limited messages or sound bites in a debate. The way we even get people to read these arguments is to first win these rhetorical battles. And even then not everyone is going to have time read these kind of discussions. If we rely on these kind of long form arguments to the exclusion of all other forms of communication and rhetoric then we will lose to the fascists.
A bystander needs an actual reason to be convinced, not a few mean words.
This is exactly what any given bystander needs in the fast paced social media discourse we have today. A person having someone tell them a fascist is wrong in a few short words that have a negative connotation because they are mean is how people are socialized. We don’t have to like it, but we do have to acknowledge and act on reality if we want to continue to live in reality.
You claim a lot about antifascist strategy but your claims are not supported by historical evidence.
The strongest antifascist factions have always been those that seek unity within oppressed groups.
Nothing about using rhetoric to defend people is divisive. The same way violence in self-defense is not divisive. Throwing minority groups under the bus for the sake of moral purity is peak divisiveness.
Tailism just leads to division.
I’m not arguing for your argument’s straw man so this isn’t an issue.
All your arguments are based on claims that are guesses or just plainly untrue. This not not a serious discussion. It makes sense that your sources and ‘experiences’ come from vaush and twitter. Touch grass, talk to some experienced antifascist activists and maybe read some books.
Edit: and maybe reach out to a disabled community (in a respectful manner) to learn about how ableist language impacts them.
The normalisation of words like ‘stupid’ does have real life consequences to people with learning disabilities. Any time you use that word or similar words, you are not only insulting the person it’s directed at, but you’re also insulting all people with a learning disability by insinuating that they are in some way inferior, because according to you their disability is an insult in and of itself. You will not gain any sympathy from the disabled community by normalising those words. You’re pushing them away and throwing them under the bus to be targeted first.
‘Weird’ is not an equivalent word because it doesn’t define a group of people in the same way. Walz’s usage of the word ‘weird’ wasn’t to insult transphobes. It was a correct assessment that republicans are way too interested in controlling the personal lives of trans people in a way that most people would (and should) be weirded out by. It’s weird (and creepy) to find a stranger in your bedroom in the same way that it’s weird (and creepy) to have a stranger tell you how you should dress, behave and look. It’s an argument that has substance, compared to the empty argument of saying that a transphobe person is of ‘low intelligence’, especially when that’s often not even the source of their transphobia.
Substantive arguments are always better than non substantive ‘mean’ arguments as you call them. You’re not arguing to convince a nazi, you’re arguing to convince a bystander that a nazi is dangerous. A bystander needs an actual reason to be convinced, not a few mean words.
You claim a lot about antifascist strategy but your claims are not supported by historical evidence. The strongest antifascist factions have always been those that seek unity within oppressed groups. Tailism just leads to division.
Targeted meanness doesn’t normalize the specific words used so that is not a relevant concern. Again, no one but the targeted fascists were offended by the usage of weird. Usages of the word weird haven’t exploded against queer people. By being mean to intolerant people we are defending the people those intolerant people want to kill. By refusing to be mean we would be abandoning the targeted out-groups. It is trivial to differentiate between using a word as a rhetorical tool in specific situations and dismissing its use in general discourse. It is in fact insulting to marginalized groups to insinuate they would not understand this.
It definitely insulted them. Trump and Vance did not know how to handle being called weird. Weird is most certainly equivalent to words like dumb and stupid in terms of meanness.
The use case of insulting a fascists intelligence would be different than calling them weird. Any given word is not going to be effective in every hypothetical scenario. Weird was the correct choice in Tim Walz’s case during the election. Calling fascists stupid can be the correct choice in others.
The fact this is wrong is self-evident. We could of course not fit this discussion effectively into character limited messages or sound bites in a debate. The way we even get people to read these arguments is to first win these rhetorical battles. And even then not everyone is going to have time read these kind of discussions. If we rely on these kind of long form arguments to the exclusion of all other forms of communication and rhetoric then we will lose to the fascists.
This is exactly what any given bystander needs in the fast paced social media discourse we have today. A person having someone tell them a fascist is wrong in a few short words that have a negative connotation because they are mean is how people are socialized. We don’t have to like it, but we do have to acknowledge and act on reality if we want to continue to live in reality.
My argument’s claims are in fact based on historical evidence. Two of the examples in my argument were from real twitter discourse. Here’s the Vaush video, but it contains abelist language, so only watch it if learning how to defeat fascism is worth violating personal sensibilities. The other example being Tim Walz, which refers to the last election cycle that just happened.
Nothing about using rhetoric to defend people is divisive. The same way violence in self-defense is not divisive. Throwing minority groups under the bus for the sake of moral purity is peak divisiveness.
I’m not arguing for your argument’s straw man so this isn’t an issue.
All your arguments are based on claims that are guesses or just plainly untrue. This not not a serious discussion. It makes sense that your sources and ‘experiences’ come from vaush and twitter. Touch grass, talk to some experienced antifascist activists and maybe read some books.
Edit: and maybe reach out to a disabled community (in a respectful manner) to learn about how ableist language impacts them.